Emac 2.0

[Greg Hladky]

In case the old EMAC thread can't be recovered I'm starting a new one to pick up where the old one left off. If it can be re-posted, then we'll have some history for this new thread.

It seems electric power in 2020 is still as unpopular as ever in the IMAC world. And understandably so. There haven't been any breakthroughs in battery technology since LiPos replaced NiCads about twenty years ago. But small improvements in model airplane design along with ever larger and more powerful LiPo batteries provide a compelling case to fly electric, at least in the lower classes.

North Central finally had its first contest of the year (after cancellations due to COVID-19), so I had an opportunity to fly my electric 104" Extreme Flight Extra 300 EV2 in competition this past weekend. I was flying against the winner of last year's NC Regional Championship - in the Advanced class. So how did the plane do? Was it competitive?

The Extra had plenty of power, in spite of near 100% humidity, and just as importantly, it had enough duration to complete two Advanced sequences in one flight. The plane was very competitive against a 123" AJ Laser 230 powered by a DA 200. Scores have not been posted yet, but some details of the contest can be found here.

The plane has been able to complete two Advanced sequences in one flight at an air density altitude as high as 2900 feet, a direct cross wind up to 10 mph, and a direct headwind up to 12 mph. I haven't flown it in conditions any worse than that, but I suspect performance would suffer enough to make it non-competitive at that point. There is just enough power and duration to meet these conditions and no more.

The attached schematic has all the details on the plane.

[Rich Whitlow]

Thanks Greg. I competed for a couple of years with my AJ 93" Laser with the Motrolfly Motor. I think there are some better options for motor now. I was able to get through Sportsman 2 sequences. It was 12S, as well.

[David Pierce]

I thought it flew great, nice work! Sure is a fine line tho.

[Greg Hladky]

Thanks Greg. I competed for a couple of years with my AJ 93" Laser with the Motrolfly Motor. I think there are some better options for motor now. I was able to get through Sportsman 2 sequences. It was 12S, as well.

You're welcome. The Motrolfly motors are very efficient. I flew one in my 95" EF Extra 330 in Sportsman and Intermediate. I had enough power and duration to do two sequences in winds over 20 mph.

I bought larger capacity batteries (than my 10 Ah packs) for my 104" Extra to fly in competition, but they turned out be worthless paperweights. Four ZC 5800 6s packs in 12s2p for 11.6 Ah, but they only had 4300 mAh, if taken down to 3.3V! And each battery was 58 grams heavier than advertised. I'm still trying to get Hobby King to acknowledge that they sold bad packs under a false label. Anyway, that's why I had to fly with my 10 Ah packs in this last contest and my duration was so marginal.

[Greg Hladky]

I thought it flew great, nice work! Sure is a fine line tho.

Thanks, David! With just slightly more capacity I will have more breathing room.

[Greg Hladky]

For anyone in IMAC who still prefers electric over gas, my advice is go fly pattern. There were 11 of us in the Advanced class at the Pattern contest in Hebron, KY, this past weekend. That was some good competition. And everyone flew electric, in all classes. Electronic scoring is better, too.

The technology will advance eventually to make an electric plane competitive in Unlimited, but until fossil fuels are restricted or banned completely, gas planes will have the advantage. Perhaps that change will happen about the same time auto-scoring becomes available. With the elimination of biased, unprofessional judging, and a level playing field with regard to power, IMAC may become popular once more.

[Perry VanMeter]

Greg,
I was at this same compitition you speek of.
I was flying in basic and no matter how you feel about the judging at our IMAC competitions I don't feel the way you do. No matter if I had been the regional champion of 2018 in my class the judges weren't biased or unprofessional in judging my performance. I came in last in my class. That being said, I hadn't flown all summer untill that event and my flying ability showed as much. I flew like crap.
I've seen you fly in sportsman's class and thought you flew very well with your electric plan. I also watched you fly in the event you are talking about I saw you weren't flying as well as you did in the sportsman's class. I understand that your battery life is an issue for completing your sequence but I'm wondering if your focus was on that rather than flying your sequence. I'm sorry you feel this way about IMAC and the judges but you shouldn't nock this sport if you're truly not flying at the level I know you're capable of.
Just saying.

[Earle Andrews]

For anyone in IMAC who still prefers electric over gas, my advice is go fly pattern. There were 11 of us in the Advanced class at the Pattern contest in Hebron, KY, this past weekend. That was some good competition. And everyone flew electric, in all classes. Electronic scoring is better, too.

The technology will advance eventually to make an electric plane competitive in Unlimited, but until fossil fuels are restricted or banned completely, gas planes will have the advantage. Perhaps that change will happen about the same time auto-scoring becomes available. With the elimination of biased, unprofessional judging, and a level playing field with regard to power, IMAC may become popular once more.

Well....where to begin? Anytime you have people involved in judging ANYTHING you have the potential for bias. This has been addressed in the judging criteria, judging schools, instructors, and discussed at many contests prior to beginning flights. Minimizing (note NOT eliminating) bias can be done with MORE schooled judges on the line. There are already statistical programs available that help to reduce the effects of bias, however there must be a sufficient number of judges for those programs to work....usually this is 5+. Good luck with that as it's hard at times to get 3 schooled judges for each category. Auto/electronic scoring does NOTHING for addressing bias. H'mmmm.....is there no biased, unprofessional judging in pattern competitions????

Unprofessional judging???? Do you mean paid judging??? If so even then you have quality and bias issues. Not sure what you're talking about there?

Level playing field? So....thrust to weight?.....size of planes? This dead horse has been beaten so many times, in IMAC as well as full scale. Electric can be just as competitive if you're wiling to spend the money. Go for it! Just don''t hold your breath waiting for fossil fuels to be banned.

I fly IMAC because I like to see precision aerobatics performed by airplanes that look like, or very similar to their full scale counterparts. If pattern floats your boat then great....have fun.....but bashing IMAC doesn't help.

Earle

[David Pierce]

Pattern is a good compliment to IMAC, if Covid hadn’t ruined everything, I would have entered at least one pattern contest. I prefer larger planes tho so IMAC offers that.

I will be very disappointed if gas is outlawed, I love the noise and playing with these engines. Plus I feel a lipo battery is basically a bomb waiting to go off, know too many people that have had 10’s of thousands of dollars damage to home and property. They were careful too, but just a second left unmonitored can be disaster. And swapping batteries for 6 min flight times doesn’t really interest me. But happy for those that like electric, enjoy!
Dave

[Rob Willis]

Greg. Do you really want to bash the judges? I believe you were not prepared to judge the Intermediate unknown at Toby’s. Had it not been for me you would have copied Jamie’s scores. Other pilots were pissed that I stopped the sequence so you could get the correct Aresti.... we all are working too hard to grow our region to put up with your poor attitude. Move on!

[Greg Hladky]

Greg,
I was at this same compitition you speek of.... I've seen you fly in sportsman's class and thought you flew very well with your electric plan. I also watched you fly in the event you are talking about I saw you weren't flying as well as you did in the sportsman's class. I understand that your battery life is an issue for completing your sequence but I'm wondering if your focus was on that rather than flying your sequence. I'm sorry you feel this way about IMAC and the judges but you shouldn't nock this sport if you're truly not flying at the level I know you're capable of.
Just saying.

Hi, Perry. I wasn't referring to any of the judges for the Known sequences. If you sat in the chair for those, good job, my friend! I got the scores I deserved. In fact, having just moved up to Advanced this year, and flying with an electric plane with just enough power to get through two sequences, I was very proud of what my plane accomplished. I flew some of my best sequences ever in that class, close to 80% percentage of perfection. I was very happy with that. I flew better than I did in practice, and that is rare.

I accomplished two very big goals I set for myself this year: to move up to Advanced, and to do that with an electric plane. I am grateful to IMAC for helping me achieve those goals.

I work hard to perfect my flying, but I don't expect perfection from either the organization or the judges. I do expect some basic fairness and professionalism. By that I mean personal vendettas should not affect IMAC scores. Anyone who can't handle public criticism should not be flying IMAC, and they definitely should not be sitting in the judge's seat handing out zeros to settle old scores.

[David Pierce]

Probably better to hash this stuff out privately.

[Rob Willis]

Sounds like you had a good time at the event and you knew you screwed up. Don't blame personal vendettas against two of our national judges. You will just look more like a fool. Greg, I am appalled once again and will not stand for this. You pulled the same crap last year behind my back on a separate forum, blaming my "cadence" when I tried to call for you at your request. FYI, I was so happy you won the finals, because I knew it would only bring more controversy to our IMAC family if I had. Even when you win you are not happy. Please leave! CMA IMAC Bash - August 22-23, 2020 North Central Region - Local IMAC Contest Peebles, Ohio CD: Toby Silhavy The first contest of the year finally happened this past weekend! Toby and his family hosted the event at their farm in Peebles, Ohio. They went all out to make this contest a memorable event for the fifteen pilots who attended. Before the first round of the day on Saturday morning, Dewey Davenport, a friend of Toby's, flew in and landed his full scale 1930s New Standard D25 bi-plane on the runway. Check out how close he brushed the crops on approach to touchdown! Thunderstorms and rain limited us to one round on Saturday. On Sunday we got one round of Unknowns and one round of Knowns. My electric 104" Extra 300 EV2 completed two Advanced sequences for each of the two Known rounds. The single sequence Unknown only took my pack down to storage charge, so very easy on the battery. The plane had plenty of power, despite the near 100% humidity for the weekend. Temps in the 70s and 80s kept the air density altitude within an acceptable range for a double sequence flight. I flew some of my best Known sequences and rolling loops ever, but the Sunday morning Unknown went off the rails when my plane went into the sun. I exited that figure upright instead of inverted, so I had to roll another 1/2 to prepare for the next figure, a negative spin. That one started OK, but after the spin I may have done a 1/2 roll instead of a 2x4 point roll, so another zero. The positive snap from inverted on a 45 degree down line, after a full roll, also went off the rails. I had never done one before! I meant to add power to liven up the snap, but failed to do so in the heat of the moment, as I was quickly running out of altitude. The plane lost energy and dove - inverted - toward the ground. I managed to recover and push out on my original line for the next figure, but the recovery was not pretty. More points lost! I was in first place after one round on Saturday (with a 79 and 78 PP score), but the toll of losing the Unknown put me in second place for the contest. The plane survived the weekend to fly another day, so I was happy about that. We had good food for the weekend, and a spectacular fireworks show on Saturday night that rivaled a professional, fourth of July display. Two IMAC planes went down this weekend. One got too low on approach from the west end of the runway and ran into a tree. The plane was removed from the tree and is repairable. The second was a dead stick near the midpoint of the runway. The plane had too much speed by the time the pilot touched down near the end of the runway and ripped the gear off the fuselage. It looked to be repairable as well. Scores will be posted soon.

[A.J. Jaffe]

Hi, Perry. I wasn't referring to any of the judges for the Known sequences. If you sat in the chair for those, good job, my friend! I got the scores I deserved. In fact, having just moved up to Advanced this year, and flying with an electric plane with just enough power to get through two sequences, I was very proud of what my plane accomplished. I flew some of my best sequences ever in that class, close to 80% percentage of perfection. I was very happy with that. I flew better than I did in practice, and that is rare.

I accomplished two very big goals I set for myself this year: to move up to Advanced, and to do that with an electric plane. I am grateful to IMAC for helping me achieve those goals.

I work hard to perfect my flying, but I don't expect perfection from either the organization or the judges. I do expect some basic fairness and professionalism. By that I mean personal vendettas should not affect IMAC scores. Anyone who can't handle public criticism should not be flying IMAC, and they definitely should not be sitting in the judge's seat handing out zeros to settle old scores.

[Kjetil Hansen]

but until fossil fuels are restricted or banned completely, gas planes will have the advantage.

I belive this is the current situation:
When we are doing 2 sequences of 10 figures, gas has an advantage.
When we are doing 1 seguence of 10 figures, electric has an advantage.

The solution is to to fly one sequence that has more that 10 figures.
In my opinion 13 figures would remove the bias.
Basic can be keept at 10 figures.